Curse

Daesu · Jul 23, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I feel compelled to respond to this misinformation, so that other people reading the thread are not misled.
...blah blah...

That is totally irrelevant to what I said. A dollar USD is legal tender. A $10 USD note would get you 10 $1 USD note. Zkeys however, are not legal tender. People dont have to accept zkeys as payment for debt. It is a commodity, like a sack of flour. Do I want payment in sacks of flour? Maybe, or maybe not even if you try to convince how good a deal this is, given the current flour prices, I dont have to accept it.

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So why do I say that zkeys make a more attractive currency in some respects? Well, hardly anyone actually buys FoW or Chaos Gloves any more, but there's plenty of demand to exchange zkeys for points to the title track. With ecto you have what has become more or less a fiat currency that is constantly being printed. Inflation is more or less assured, which is bad for the ecto sitting in your storage.

This is not true of zkeys...except for the fact that so many of them are being dumped into the system via XTH that you're observing satiation of demand for convertibility, moving zkeys towards being essentially another fiat currency.

Says you, I still see many people farming ectos and using them for FoW armor or Chaos gloves. Also I see people selling zkeys instead of using them for the title. Have you done a study to justify your claim?

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As for the remainder of your post, it just further reveals your prejudices. The idea that adults substitute to WoW and Everquest because they require less grind than GW is absolutely laughable.

You twisted my words again. They dont subscribe to WoW or Everquest because they have less grind, they subscribe to WoW or Everquest long ago, since most of their friends play in them. If they would to move to GW, then they have to go through the grind all over again before they can reach the same levels as they have in WoW. GW rewards alot more from the amount of time to play, than actual skills. And seeing that ANet is too afraid of the QQers, they dont reward those players who support them the most, financially, as much as WoW does.

Martin Alvito · Jul 23, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Zkeys however, are not legal tender.

Neither are ecto. In principle, gold is the "legal tender" in this game. The problem is that the cap on the amount of gold we can trade compelled players to come up with markers for value to get around that cap. Ecto, zkeys and armbraces are the most commonly used ones, in that order. Ecto and armbraces are more or less fiat currencies, whereas zkeys will always have at least the backing of their expected value at conversion to a drop.

(You're either an idiot or incredibly impatient if you actually exchange an armbrace for most items, because you're destroying a lot of value. This is an interesting problem - in the short term it's impossible for an armbrace to be more valuable than the most valuable Tormented item. If that happened, people would arbitrage the exchange until the supply increase made the prices equivalent. However, in the long term only the supply of the most valuable Tormented item should increase significantly, lowering its price and the price of armbraces. Cool problem.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Says you, I still see many people farming ectos and using them for FoW armor or Chaos gloves. Also I see people selling zkeys instead of using them for the title. Have you done a study to justify your claim?

Let's just say that the UWSC crowd is by and large sticking them in the box rather than taking them to the Forgemaster. If they want FoW, they've already got it on the desired characters. Do I need to do a study? It's unnecessary. You can infer from the pricing data, the shifts in frequency of very high levels of the Zaishen title, and the number of keys XTH pumps out that there's a ton more ectos than there used to be, and that a lot of the zkeys are being used on the Zaishen chest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Do you know what MMOs they play? Games like wow and everquest. Do you know why they dont want to try to play GW? According to them, it is because it would take them too much time to grind to a level where they can really enjoy the game.

Possible implications of this statement: they dislike the process of grinding, or they don't want to abandon their existing investment in the game they presently play.

In the first case, you haven't explained why they endured WoW grind. In the second case, you haven't explained why they selected WoW or Everquest in the first place, since they have to play a ton of hours to accomplish anything in those games.

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Originally Posted by Daesu

You twisted my words again. They dont subscribe to WoW or Everquest because they have less grind, they subscribe to WoW or Everquest long ago, since most of their friends play in them.

OK, so you meant to say that they don't want to abandon their existing investment. Fine, but you need to come out and say that clearly the first time around, rather than accuse me of twisting your words. Your phrasing the first time didn't convey your meaning. You introduced the concept of their friends here, not in the first post. I cannot read your mind.

Regardless, you haven't bothered to explain why these players chose WoW or Everquest over GW in the first place. Especially since GW involved a lot less grind a few years ago, and you have posited that these people dislike grind.

OK, that's it, we're done. I've said what needs to be said about your misinformation regarding currency. Since that's now cleared up, all the loose ends are dealt with. Goodbye and good luck, Daesu.

Daesu · Jul 23, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Neither are ecto. In principle, gold is the "legal tender" in this game. The problem is that the cap on the amount of gold we can trade compelled players to come up with markers for value to get around that cap. Ecto, zkeys and armbraces are the most commonly used ones, in that order. Ecto and armbraces are more or less fiat currencies, whereas zkeys will always have at least the backing of their expected value at conversion to a drop.

Zkeys expected value kept varying wildly. Their expected value changes from trader to trader, it depends who you ask and when you ask them. Are they worth 5k then? To some people it maybe 4k, to others it maybe 6k. That 2k may not be a big difference if you have 1 zkey, but if you have 1,000 zkeys, that is a variation of 2000k. I still dont see why it would be a better currency than ectos which you admitted to have a more stable value.

Yes, I understand the rare material merchant can't hold if something really drastic happen to ectos value, but what if something drastic happen to zkey values too, wouldn't it be even worse?

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Let's just say that the UWSC crowd is by and large sticking them in the box rather than taking them to the Forgemaster. If they want FoW, they've already got it on the desired characters. Do I need to do a study? It's unnecessary. You can infer from the pricing data, the shifts in frequency of very high levels of the Zaishen title, and the number of keys XTH pumps out that there's a ton more ectos than there used to be, and that a lot of the zkeys are being used on the Zaishen chest.

Does every character have FoW by now? No! Does everyone have maxed Zaishen title? Of course not. All you are saying is your personal impressions, no actual figures or data to support your claim.

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Possible implications of this statement: they dislike the process of grinding, or they don't want to abandon their existing investment in the game they presently play.

Have you thought that it could be both since the two factors are not mutually exclusive?

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In the first case, you haven't explained why they endured WoW grind. In the second case, you haven't explained why they selected WoW or Everquest in the first place, since they have to play a ton of hours to accomplish anything in those games.

Perhaps I assume certain knowledge about game history from people here. WoW has been well known even before GW. Sure they started on WoW and Everquest first, they probably played up their characters little by little over the years. Yes it was grind, but it was grind that has already been done. They probably bought as much advantage as they can.

How are you going to draw these people to GW (i.e. grind wars)? Can I honestly say there is minimal grind in GW now? No! GW is full of grind, grind that can't be side stepped by spending money. It has become a game for little fat kids with all the time in the world to just sit there, play the game, and do nothing else.

Mireles · Jul 24, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Wow, go on a weeks vacation people still talking about this. Glad to see that they still haven't fixed Xunlai Tourny House and secondary currency starting to rise in value... another month without XTH it doesn't look like they are to serious about fixing it.... People now have to play the game to obtain money within constraint of the user agreement. Now the people that actually play to get these secondary currencies have the advantage, as they should, not people that want to be recognized in the game without playing for whatever reason.

Two months without points with no sign of restoration of XTH or even a timeline where we could expect such a correction of code. This should be proof enough for y'all that think Arena Net is obligated to give you free z-keys every month. They are not, if they were they would be in trouble by now. Take your time Arena net... let the z-key economy recover a little before the price needs dropping again, if a time shall come.

Surprised to see Daesu still calling everyone wrong after a week of making no sense.

Thank you for everyone's interest hopefully some GM will see this and address the issues brought up on both sides of the argument and come to a compromise satisfactory to MOST of the community. My objectives relating to this post have been met. See y'all around.

Mireles

tonini · Jul 24, 2009, 03:21 AM // 03:21

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Zkeys expected value kept varying wildly. Their expected value changes from trader to trader, it depends who you ask and when you ask them. Are they worth 5k then? To some people it maybe 4k, to others it maybe 6k.

wrong if you have followed the markets of z-keys from the moment the z-chest was added they sky rocketed from anywhere around 3k to 6-7k a piece

after some circulation with z-keys into the market they dropped since player had a chance to farm them b4 XTH then when it was introduced every month after points were released they would drop and after the last set of points were given out they were around 3.9k per or less it only now given the time that zkeys have had to recover they have become more scarce and demand has gone up ever so slightly to 4k-4.1k

and the irregularity of seling z-keys for 5k and 6k now a days lol
u will never ever, ever, ever, ever,ever, EVER find a bulk buyer for that price it is only those few whom may have heard stories of z-chest and want to try their luck with 1-2 keys

so there may not be a set going rate by an npc for z-keys unlike ectos but there is a going rate for them which those who buy in bulk are aware of

AtomicMew · Jul 24, 2009, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Daesu, the value of currency also changes over time too.

Zkeys/Ectos ARE currency, just like Stone of Jordans were currency back in the day.

Just because the exchange rate of gold to ecto or gold to zkey is not stable, does not mean it is not currency. That only means it models real life - just like the exchange rate between the USD and the Euro and Yen and the peso etc fluctuate all the time.

Also like real life, disparate commercial entities will not accept certain currencies. For example, a convenience store in the US probably wont accept Yen.

I have no idea why you think zkeys and ectos are not currency, considering they fit the real life definition as closely as it is possible for bits in a game to be currency.

Daesu · Jul 24, 2009, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Daesu, the value of currency also changes over time too.

Zkeys/Ectos ARE currency, just like Stone of Jordans were currency back in the day.

Just because the exchange rate of gold to ecto or gold to zkey is not stable, does not mean it is not currency. That only means it models real life - just like the exchange rate between the USD and the Euro and Yen and the peso etc fluctuate all the time.

Also like real life, disparate commercial entities will not accept certain currencies. For example, a convenience store in the US probably wont accept Yen.

I have no idea why you think zkeys and ectos are not currency, considering they fit the real life definition as closely as it is possible for bits in a game to be currency.

I dont think zkeys make a good currency because its value flunctuate wildly. If I have bought zkeys for 6k each and go on a long vacation, I may end up regretting it. But whatever I think is not going to stop anybody from attempting to use it like currency.

To get back on topic, XTH is something that ANet advertised on their website, so it would be unethical for them not to deliver on their promise after taking our money.

DreamWind · Jul 25, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I admit I have not read this thread, but I agree with the original idea. More accounts meaning more keys is stupid, and is nothing more than a marketing gimmick by Anet. XTH is effectively Anet sponsered RMT. End.

AtomicMew · Jul 25, 2009, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I dont think zkeys make a good currency because its value flunctuate wildly. If I have bought zkeys for 6k each and go on a long vacation, I may end up regretting it. But whatever I think is not going to stop anybody from attempting to use it like currency.

1) The only reason zkeys have fluctuated so much is because of, guess what, XTH. It's called inflation.

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To get back on topic, XTH is something that ANet advertised on their website, so it would be unethical for them not to deliver on their promise after taking our money.

How is that unethical to balance the playing field? A.net has already made a ton of changes that have directly affected the GW economy in the name of balance. It happens in EVERY MMORPG. Why should XTH be a special exception?

Daesu · Jul 26, 2009, 03:00 PM // 15:00

holy thread resurrection, batman!

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

1) The only reason zkeys have fluctuated so much is because of, guess what, XTH. It's called inflation.

No it still fluctuates even to this day.

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How is that unethical to balance the playing field? A.net has already made a ton of changes that have directly affected the GW economy in the name of balance. It happens in EVERY MMORPG. Why should XTH be a special exception?

Right, XTH is no exception from the Nike's Gifts, Factions/NF Collector's Edition mini pets, and the unlock packs. This is what I expected them to do.

In fact, they should do more to balance the amount of time played between those who have full time jobs and those who dont. This game is lifestyle prejudiced against those with real life responsibilities. If time is real money, then real money should be able to balance against available time farming this game from the little fat kids with no responsibilities.